| The Burros of Berea Podcast
Episode 169 - Roundtable - Flat Earth or Globe? What do we actually know?
Panelists: Rick Welch, David Curtis, Rick Carter, Jordan Grant and Mike Green
Recorded on location at Berean Bible Church
Virginia Beach, Virginia
February, 2024
Summing Up:
54:03 - Pastor Curtis:
I think it has to do with God. You know, the whole thing [is about] God, ok. If you say we have a flat earth and there's a dome over it, what does that do to the big bang? You know, I mean, obviously we are created and put in this environment, so I think it's all about, we gotta do away with God, you're just on this spinning rock that has, just the dust in space, you're nothing, it's nothing. NO. When you say "this is it" there's no stuff out there, "this is it" it's us, and we're here and God died for us because he loves us. That's significant, you know, to who we are... Then you go to the Bible, and God who created the whole thing tells us "this is what it is." It's a flat earth with a dome over it. You won't find one Bible verse that gives you any hint of this earth spinning, you know, or being a ball or anyting -- nothing at all... There is no verses at all that deal with a spinning ball. Just not there. You can't go to the Bible and try to prove that model at all.
1:10:36 - Jordan Grant:
I don't claim to know what we live on. I don't claim to know the shape, if there is one. I have no clue.
Favorite Citations:
4:44 - Jordan Grant:
You cannot test the cause of the observed phenomenon.
5:07 - Jordan Grant:
A scientific theory comes after validation by experiment.
7:14 - Jordan Grant:
I don't claim a flat model, just so you know.
7:22 - Jordan Grant:
There is no globe model and there is no flat earth model.
8:13 - Jordan Grant:
Looking at lights in the sky is not science.Just because you can observe something doesn't make it scientific. The first part of the scientific method would be observing natural phenomenon which is something happening. If all you are doing is observing lights in the sky, that's all you got. Just because you observe it doesn't make it science... You can't test anything you are looking at in the sky.
8:49 - Jordan Grant:
We need to get to the actual, what do we live on and how do you know it?
Rick Welch:
Ok, let's switch this and you go ahead and tell me?
Jordan Grant:
No. I don't know. I am not making the positive claim.
13:57 - Jordan Grant:
If anybody can show me any of this, because I am not even basing this on the Bible. This is just purely taking their claims and putting them to the test. If they can show it to me, then I will believe it in a heartbeat. Nobody can.
15:44 - Jordan Grant:
I know the story, but if you're going to make the claims show me... give me some cowbell, right? Give me some evidence. Give me proof. Looking at things and making up stories is not proof.
16:04 - Jordan Grant:
We all do that to some extent, and that's why I brought up the Covid discussion a few years ago.
16:34 - Jordan Grant:
You have to come to terms with... "This is just a belief that I have." And that's fine. Because I have no problem with beliefs. I believe a lot of stuff that I can't proove.
19:00 - Jordan Grant:
My issue is not, like I said, I have no problem if that's the real story. I believed it my whole life until a few years ago. My issue is nobody can prove it, and everything they try to prove is a fallacy.
Rick Welch:
In essence what you are telling me is that you are actually not a flat earther at all. You are a plane -- er. Like you said, you don't adopt a flat or globe model because "there aren't one."
Jordan Grant:
Correct... for me, personally, I will just say my peace on it, is that I strictly came at this from more of a "how do I, can I prove that wrong or how do I know that? Everything for me is "how do I know that?" And that's my biggest, you know, question that I ask people now if you really want to set somebody off, you just go, "how do you know that?" You will quickly find out if they know or not. And if they don't know, they will get pretty upset, and make up a story and use a fallacy. If they know, they'll say"oh, here, let me show you how I know.
20:11 Jordan Grant:
I don't adhere to necessarily the flat disc, like, the Gleeson[sp?] Map or any of those. I think those are... because those aren't made to be accurate as far as distances go in certain ways... We don't live on maps and we don't live on models. They are useful to get us to point A, point B, but people have done a lot of interesting research into how maps have morphed over time.
22:04: Jordan Grant:
I am a simple person. Either you have proof or you don't. Once we get into the storytimes stuff, I am like, "yeah, that could work" but so could any other story. Your chances of being correct are literally zero, becaue you have an infinite number of stories that you could write.
22:34: Jordan Grant:
When it comes to proof and validation for these things, like, that's why I asked. If you can just show me where the Earth was measured to be a sphere, we should all be able to go do that. Let's just go do it. Let's see it.
25:15: Jordan Grant:
We are dealing with competing religions is what this is, ok. Like, you're dealing with competing cosmologies. And people have to understand that. Like, it's fine if you believe it, but at least recognize it's a belief. And that's something I started understanding when I started listening to a lot of this flat earth stuff, and I was kind of on the fence. I didn't know.
25:57 Jordan Grant:
So I needed to start examining my own beliefs and figure out what do I, what can I prove and what is reallyjust being hopeful for somethin, alright? Again, I don't have a problem with the globe side as far as if you want to believe that. I do have a problem with the bigger way it's been pulled over people so they don't even question and don't even recognizeteh fallacies. That's my bigger thing. Christians should not be using fallacies to get points across.
27:36 Rick Welch:
So, let's do some simple talk then, ok? So I pick up my phone, I drop it, so how do we explain that?
Jordan Grant:
I don't need to because I am not making a positive claim about it. Doesn't affect my life, because I don't need it to suck water to a sphere, you do. I don't. All I go is, "yeah, it's more dense than air"... It's entropic law. It's another type of entropy where things move from high to low or whatever... I don't need to explain that because I am not making any claims about why things rise or fall, because it doesn't affect anything in my cosmology. It has nothing to do with what I believe. The globe side has to have gravity because they need it for water to suck to a sphere and somehow gasses to not escape into the vacuum.
Rick Welch:
Why do they need that globe?
Jordan Grant:
Because it makes you think you are here on this rock in a vacuum, so guess who gets to control the resources and tell you how to live your life and "save the planet" and be green and do all these things.
29:57: Jordan Grant:
It's also a cosmology. And all of htis springs at the same time, pretty much... people act like people believed in the globe for thousands of years... No, they haven't. That is not true. Peopl as early as the 1900s were still taught flat earth stuff even in public schools. They interviewed 100-year-old people about that.
30:42: Jordan Grant:
So you got all these stories that blend together to become a religion, because it is. It is an origins story. It's a religion, a cosmology. And so why do they do that, I mean, why was evolution pushed? I guess to make you think you are meaningless, I don't know. Evil people do evil things.
31:08: Jordan Grant:
What's the issue here is, what's reality? What can we test? What can we know? And the rest is just more speculation. I don't care why Johnny killed Sally if it's shown that everybody saw him do it.... This is the deeper picture for me is, and I am not here saying it's a lie. I mean, there are lies and this is a belief system. All you need is belief. Once you have enough belief you can get away with whatever.
34:16: Jordan Grant:
It goes back to old school philosophy where everything, anything spherical was considered the perfect shape. Once you actually study philosophy on these things and why people might have made these stories up, you understand that the bulk of human, quote unquote "human knowledge" is just stories. That's what philosophy is. If you don't have Scripture, if we are not dogmatic, and we don't say, "that's your axiom," that's our "starting point." We believe Scripture because we believe God gave us that, that's His divine revelation. If you don't have that, there is only so much you can prove in this earth, you know, it's miniscule. Everything else is storytelling. That's what philosophers did. Go read them all. They're all different stories. So, they can't all be right, right? That's what we're still dealing with, and a lot of thisis just rebranding of old philosophies coming back in different packages.
35:35: Jordan Grant:
When you turn that into a religion you can use it to then warp people's minds, that's when it's not ok... I spent a bulk of 2021 looking into this stuff cause it drived me crazy, cause I thought I knew.
39:30: Jordan Grant:
Technology is not science. Science deals with nature. You're trying to prove what causes a phenomenon that you see happening... Splitting an atom has nothing to do with science.
45:05: Jordan Grant:
Like I said, I am simple when it comes to this. I don't make a lot of positive claims, and I will not make a positive claim if I can't back it up.
46:22: Jordan Grant:
That's the other thing I think a lot of people don't understand is it is a religion, this is all religious based with the stars.
Link to Full Intereview Here
How Preterism Refutes Flat Earth Cosmology
Video Presentation: "The Eschatology of the Firmament" by Tim Martin and Covenant Creation on YouTube.
This presentation issues a public challenge to Pastor David Curtis to Debate what the Bible teaches about Genesis 1 and Flat Earth Cosmology.
Will Pastor Curtis be a Berean and respond to these Biblical arguments from a Preterist View against his Flat Earth Cosmology?
As of today (02-09-24) there has been no response to Tim Martin and Covenant Creation on YouTube about the Biblical problems with his Flat Earth Cosmology. Not a peep.
Will Pastor Curtis be a Berean on this subject and respond to the Biblical arguments against his claims and teaching on Flat Earth Cosmology?
Does Pastor Curtis believe his Flat Earth View can be defended from a Scriptural evaluation and challenge?
Does Pastor Curtis practice the Berean principle?
Or does Pastor Curtis only preach about "being a Berean"? You decide.
Will be updated when necessary.
Stay Tuned...
"The Eschatology of the Firmament" by Tim Martin
back to YEC, Geocentrism, and Flat Earth Cosmology Archive
Covenant Creation As Taught by Pastor David Curtis
David Curtis Preachs the Gospel of Flat Earth Cosmology
Update: David Curtis Teaches Everlasting, Perpetual Curse
Berean Bible Church
Virginia Beach, Virginia
September, 2023
"The Curse of Genesis 3 (Genesis 3:16-19)"
Excerpts:
15:48
"Did the punishment God gave to Adam and Eve have everlasting effects?
Do they all continue even to this day?"
30:30
"Adam was in Eden. He is in this beautiful garden full of fruits, vegetables, but now the ground is cursed. And now there is going to be problems raising food. And God made his life very hard, man's life in regard to this. No more easy, you know, in the garden they're picking fruit from the trees and eating. They're just enjoying life. Now it is going to be hard. Now it is going to be painful labor working the ground among thorns and thistles to produce enough to keep you alive."
55:35
"Yes, the Lord returned in A.D. 70, and yet the ground curse still is in effect."
59:29
"When you live your life dedicated to Christ, seeking to walk in the Spirit, and honor God in all your decisions you make and everything about your life, it's going to be a blessed life even though the curse is still there. That's my take on it, people. I think the curse is still around."
Update:
The reader should note what David Curtis preached a few months earlier:
"I think that Yahweh showed Abram that one of his descendants would redeem man from the curse and satisfy the justice of God."
Sermon Titled "Biblical Cosmology Part 2" at the 38:35 mark.
The Covenant Creation Alternative
The Covenant Creation Curriculum Series, Part 1, Section 1, "Thorns and Thistles" on YouTube
"Theologians sometimes use 'Old Covenant' to refer to the Mosaic covenant. There is truth to this in that the Mosaic covenant published most fully the distinctive character of the Adamic covenant under curse. Yet, ultimately, the Old Covenant is the covenant of the original garden of Eden. Ultimately there are two covenants, Old and New. There are two Adams, Adam and Jesus. There are two heavens and earth, the first in Adam and the second in Christ."
James B. Jordan, Through New Eyes (1988), p. 311.
Favorite Quotes from Wider Scholarship Demonstrating Covenant Creation
2024 Covenant Creation Curriculum Series
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